Catholic lay man in Rome. Discoverer of the Rational Interpretation of Vatican Council II, a breakthrough for the present Catholic Church.The sedevacantists reject the pope because of Vatican Council II irrational. When the Council is rational it supports Tradition. There is no reason for them to reject the Council or the pope. Even the SSPX can now accept Vatican Council II , rational, and meet the demand that they accept the Council. The Council is in harmony with Tradition. So they can ask for canonical recognition. They can also demand that Pope Leo XIV interpret Vatican Council II rationally, since this is ethical and that he also accepts Tradition, as did Pope Leo XIII. The main line Catholic Church must now be traditional since the Creeds, Councils and Catechisms can only be interpreted rationally and the conclusion is traditional.
SSPX IS NOT MAGISTERIAL ON SO MANY POINTS HERE THEY ARE : THEY WERE NOT DENIED OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS
19.02.2026
SSPX IS NOT MAGISTERIAL ON SO MANY POINTS HERE THEY ARE : THEY WERE NOT DENIED OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS
With Lumen Gentium 16 being invisible, Cardinal Fernandez may have had to pull out of the talks before they begin.
The text of the Council does not have to be changed. However the premise, inference and conclusion is traditional when the Rational Premise is chosen.
It means all future bishops to be appointed by Pope Leo would have to be traditional when they use the Rational Premise to interpret Vatican Council II etc.This would also be true for the SSPX bishops to be ordained on July 1
A.The SSPX is not magisterial when they interpret Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church irrationally and not rationally.
B.They are not magisterial when like the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office they project invisible cases of the baptism of desire as being visible exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, of the Council of Florence 1442, which did not mention …Altro
LEFEBVRE AND BISHOPS FELLAY AND GALARRETA DID NOT KNOW ABOUT LG-16 INVISIBLE : SSPX MUST CONFIRM
18.02.2026
LEFEBVRE AND BISHOPS FELLAY AND GALARRETA DID NOT KNOW ABOUT LG-16 INVISIBLE : SSPX MUST CONFIRM
Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the SSPX bishops made the LG 16- visible mistake like Pope Paul VI. The SSPX must confirm this.The SSPX has been part of the doctrinal problem in the Church.Even non Christians and non Catholics would agree that Lumen Gentium 16, being saved in invincible ignorance, refers to an invisible person. It can only be known to God. We cannot see or meet someone saved in invincible ignorance and with a good conscience.It is always an invisible case for us human beings. This is something obvious for even a school boy. So Fr. Davide Pagliarani and Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez must clarify this point before talks begin.
LG 16 is the Irrational Premise which creates schism for the traditionalists and the liberals. The Irrational Premise is a subtle error, a modern heresy. It has not been detected. It is now known because of so many reports on social …Altro
PAOLO RUFFINI’S CLARIFICATION IS NEEDED : WITH LG-16 INVISIBLE ALL THE BISHOPS WILL BE TRADITIONALIST IN THE FUTURE
17.02.2026
PAOLO RUFFINI’S CLARIFICATION IS NEEDED : WITH LG-16 INVISIBLE ALL THE BISHOPS WILL BE TRADITIONALIST IN THE FUTURE
1. With Vatican Council II rational, the SSPX must begin talks and postpone the consecration to August 1.
2. With LG 16 invisible, the bishops approved, appointed and consecrated have to become traditionalists since the Council will be traditionalist. It would be the same for Pope Leo and the SSPX.
3. With LG 16 invisible, Cardinal Fernandez has to accept Tradition (EENS etc) or continue in schism.
4. There cannot be a dialogue with a cardinal who continues to interpret Vatican Council II irrationally.
5. With LG 16 invisible the cases of Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, Arlington Discalced Carmelite Sisters etc have to be reviewed. They were judged when Vatican Council II was interpreted irrationally.
6. The SSPX should not postpone talks since Vatican Council II rational, really supports them and not Pope Leo.
Paolo Ruffini, the Director of the Vatican …Altro
PAOLO RUFFINI NOW KNOWS THAT THE SSPX HAS A DOCTRINAL OPTION AT THE TALKS
15.02.2025
PAOLO RUFFINI NOW KNOWS THAT THE SSPX HAS A DOCTRINAL OPTION AT THE TALKS
The Prefect of the Dicastery for Communications, Vatican, now knows after our meeting last Friday that Lumen Gentium 16 refers to an invisible case in 2026 and so it is not an explicit for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ( EENS).
So Bishop Bernard Fellay the former Superior General of the SSPX, before he is excommunicated a second time, can affirm LG 8, 14, 16, UR 3, NA , GS 22 etc, in Vatican Council II, as being hypothetical and invisible cases only in 1965-2026.
This would be the rational interpretation of Vatican Council II with the Rational Premise (invisible people are invisible; LG 16 refers to an invisible case in 2026).
So when Ad Gentes 7 ( all need faith and baptism for salvation) is aligned with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ( Council of Florence 1442) and LG 8, 14, 16 etc are not explicit exceptions for AG 7 or EENS, then Vatican Council II ( AG 7) is eclesiocenrric.
So we have …Altro
VATICAN COUNCIL II IRRATIONAL AND DISHONEST MUST BE REJECTEDS BY ALL: THERE CAN BE DIALOGUE ONLY WITH VATICAN COUNCIL II RATIONAL AND ETHICAL. ( VIEWS ON X WITH MY COMMENTS)
14.02.2026
VATICAN COUNCIL II IRRATIONAL AND DISHONEST MUST BE REJECTEDS BY ALL: THERE CAN BE DIALOGUE ONLY WITH VATICAN COUNCIL II RATIONAL AND ETHICAL.
VIEWS ON X WITH MY COMMENTS
1
Arcivescovo Carlo Maria Viganò
@CarloMVigano
The meeting between Tucho Fernaández and Fr. Davide Pagliarani highlights the paradox of the last sixty years: those declared to be outside the Catholic Church retain the Faith, and those considered in communion with the Apostolic See—to the point of holding its highest offices—are in fact heretics and apostates.
LiONEL. Yes with Vatican Council II irrational and liberal those who affirm Tradition are schismatic. But with Vatican Council II rational, those who hold the highest offices, are schismatic for not affirming the Athanasius Creed, the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus etc without exceptions. Since with the Council interpreted rationally, there no more are exceptions in the next of Vatican Council II, for the Athanasius Creed etc.
______________________ …Altro
THE PREFECT OF THE HOLY SEE DICASTERY FOR COMMUNICATIONS IS ASKED IF LUMEN GENTIUM 16 REFERS TO AN INVISBLE OR VISBLE CASE IN 2026 : SSPX- FERNANDEZ TALKS
14.02.2026
THE PREFECT OF THE HOLY SEE DICASTERY FOR COMMUNICATIONS IS ASKED IF LUMEN GENTIUM 16 REFERS TO AN INVISBLE OR VISBLE CASE IN 2026 : SSPX- FERNANDEZ TALKS
I went to the Holy See Press Office at the Vatican yesterday afternoon and I was fortunate to meet journalist Paulo Ruffini, Prefect of the Dicastery for Communications, Vatican.
I told him I was there to ask him only one question: Does Lumen Gentium 16 being saved in invincible ignorance, in Vatican Council II refer to an invisible or physically visible case in 2026? He did not answer.
I continued: For me it is an invisible case. We cannot see someone saved in invincible ignorance outsides the Catholic Church, someone saved without faith and the baptism of water.
He did not comment. He was seeing off Sr. Nina Benedikta Krapic, the new Vice Director of the Holy See Press Office.
Ruffini and I had briefly introduced ourselves earlier.
I had initially asked at the front desk to see Matteo Bruni, the Director of the Holy See …Altro
THE INTERPRETATION OF THE TEXT OF VATICAN COUNCIL II CHANGES WITH THE RATIONAL PREMISE : FERNANDEZ IS IN A CORNER
13.02.2026
The interpretation of the text of Vatican Council II changes with the Rational Premise. At times it may seem dramatic.Fernandez is in a corner
Views on X with my comments
1.
Larry Chapp
@LarryChappGS22
I do not see the proposed “process” for reconciling the SSPX with Rome ending well. This approach was tried before and was rejected by the SSPX. (Lionel. The approach was based upon VC 2 interpreted with an Irrational Premise to produce an artificial break with Tradition. We now have a new discovery. It is VC 2 Rational. It was not known to Archbishop Lefebvre. VC 2 rational favors the traditionalists. So future dialogue must change. The traditionalists have the edge.).And if anything, the society is more radicalized against Rome this time around. Furthermore, even if the leadership of the SSPX agrees to this, at least half of the Society would break away from the leadership and start up a new society. The SSPX leadership knows this too, and that leads me to believe this process …Altro
IF THE VATICAN AND THE SSPX ACCEPTED THE RATIONAL PREMISE TO INTERPRET VATICAN COUNCIL II THEY BOTH WOULD BE FEENEYITE TRADITIONALISTS. (Views on X with my commehts)
12.02.2025
IF THE VATICAN AND THE SSPX ACCEPTED THE RATIONAL PREMISE TO INTERPRET VATICAN COUNCIL II THEY BOTH WOULD BE FEENEYITE TRADITIONALISTS. (Views on X with my commehts)
The SSPX must not approve a Vatican Council II which is schismatic when there is a non schismatic choice available today
There cannot be dialogue with the Vatican and the SSPX affirming Vatican Council II irrationally.
With alleged visible baptism of desire the Nicene Creed is changed and this is first class heresy according to Ad Tuendem Fidem of Pope John Paul II
We now know that we can interpret the Council with the LG 16 invisible premise and the result is orthodoxy.
If the Vatican and the SSPX accepted the Rational Premise in the interpretation of the Council they would both be Feeneyite Traditionalist.
Before the archbishop was excommunicated he was not informed that he could interpret Vatican Council II rationally and the conclusion would be traditional.
The theological dialogue would have to be based upon …Altro
Thank you!
WITH VATICAN COUNCIL II RATIONAL IN HARMONY WITH FEENEYITE TRADITION THE SSPX ACCEPTS THE COUNCIL FOR CANONICAL RECOGNITION AND CONSECRATING BISHOPS : THE VATICAN CONDITION IS MET
12.02.2026
WITH VATICAN COUNCIL II RATIONAL IN HARMONY WITH FEENEYITE TRADITION THE SSPX ACCEPTS THE COUNCIL FOR CANONICAL RECOGNITION AND CONSECRATING BISHOPS : THE VATICAN CONDITION IS MET
If the corresspondents of the liberal and schismatic National Catholic Reporter interpreted Vatican Council II rationally i.e. Ad Gentes 7 is aligned with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) and implicit and hypothetical cases of LG 8,14, 16 etc, are not explicit examples of salvation in the present times and so are not exceptions for AG 7 and EENS, then the NCR is affirming the EENS of the Council of Florence which did not also mention any exceptions. The NCR supports Tradition like the Latin Mass traditionalists, Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary at the St. Benedict Center in New Hampshire, USA.
So with Vatican Council II rational, the NCR is no more liberal and schismatic. With Vatican Council II and the old exclusivist ecclesiology the NCR returns to traditional faith, morals and …Altro
ARCHBISHOP LEFEBVRE DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THE RATIONAL PREMISE : THE SSPX FAQ DOES NOT COVER THIS POINT
11.02.2026
ARCHBISHOP LEFEBVRE DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THE RATIONAL PREMISE : THE SSPX FAQ DOES NOT COVER THIS POINT
Sedevacantists attend Holy Mass while interpreting the Creeds, Councils and Catechisms irrationally and so schismatically.
Archbishop Lefebvre did not know about Vatican Council II interpreted with the Rational Premise.There is no comment on this point from the SSPX. Their FAQ does not cover this issue.
Pope Leo interprets the Creeds, Councils and Catechisms irrationally and so schismatically. The cardinals do the same and so also the bishops conferences. This is also a canonical issue before the SSPX.The cardinals and bishops are in schism. They could also be excommunicated ?
Pope Pius X was a Feeneyite but the SSPX is Cushingite. Cushingism is a modern heresy. The popes from Pius XII to Leo XIV have been Cushingite. Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was a Cushingite.
There is the Cushingite Tradition of the SSPX and there is the Feeneyite Tradition of those Catholics, for whom …Altro
anything new to post?
ABP. MARCEL LEFEBVRE DID NOT KNOW THAT HE INTERPRETED VATICAN COUNCIL II IRRATIONALLY AND NOT RATIONALLY : THE SSPX MUST ADMIT THERE WAS A MISTAKE
11.02.2026
ABP.MARCEL LEFEBVRE DID NOT KNOW THAT HE INTERPRETED VATICAN COUNCIL II IRRATIONALLY AND NOT RATIONALLY : THE SSPX MUST ADMIT THERE WAS A MISTAKE
Archbishop Lefebvre did not know that he was interpreting Vatican Council II with the irrational instead of rational premise. This is a discovery. It is important for the SSPX to interpret Vatican Council II rationally and admit that Lefebvre made an innocent mistake.
Archbishop Lefebvre did not know that he was interpreting Vatican Council II with the irrational instead of rational premise. This is a discovery.
Christine Nile still does not affirm Vatican Council II with the Rational Premise and so also Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
The institutional Church interprets Vatican Council II irrationally. This is an objective and public error. It is not commented upon by Fr. Ramon and the FSSP. They are also in schism with the same mistake.
1.
Views on X with my comments
John Henry Westen
@JhWesten
Archbishop Viganò: The …Altro
BISHOP ELEGANTI AND CHRISTINE NILES INTERPRET VATICAN COUNCIL II WITH THE IRRATIONAL PREMISE . MANY OF US CHOOSE THE RATIONAL PREMISE
10.02.206
Bishop Eleganti and Christine Niles interpret Vatican Council II with the politically correct Irrational Premise. There are many of us who choose the Rational Premise
However the pope, cardinals and bishops conference interpret Vatican Council II irrationally and not rationally and do not deny this. This is a canonical issue.
The Holy See over the last 60 years has been interpreting Vatican Council II with an Irrational Premise just like the traditionalists. This is a false interpretation.
Vatican Council II irrational is a break with the pre 1949 ecclesiology. Vatican Council II rational has the hermeneutic of continuity.
The SSPX is Cushingite. Cushingism is heretical Archbishop Lefebvre and Pope Paul VI were Cushingites.
Views on X with my comments
Christine Niles
@ChristineNiles1
·
18h
Bishop Marian Eleganti, a champion of tradition and outspoken critic of heresy, weighs in on SSPX consecrations: (Lionel : It is important to note that Bishop Eleganti and Christine Niles …Altro
Thank you again! Oh for the days when we will return to sanity and Catholic doctrine! God bless you!
@Lionel Leslie Andrades I think it would be rational to stop publishing your incomprehensible nonsense on Gloria.tv
IF POPE LEO SAYS LG 16 IS INVISIBLE IN 2026 THEN THE FERNANDEZ-PAGLIARANI MEETING WILL BE BASED UPON VC2 RATIONAL: BOTH AFFIRM FEENEYITE TRADITION
10.02.2026
IF POPE LEO SAYS LG 16 IS INVISIBLE IN 2026 THEN THE FERNANDEZ-PAGLIARANI MEETING WILL BE BASED UPON VC2 RATIONAL: BOTH AFFIRM FEENEYITE TRADITION
So for the LG - 16 invisible pole, the Fernandez and Pagliarani meeting is based upon the irrational and schismatic interpretation of Vatican Council II. We have a choice, now.
Fernandez and Pagliarani do not represent all Catholics but only a political lobby. We can interpret Vatican Council II rationally with the Rational Premise and the Council is ecclesiocentric.
Fernandez and Pagliarani do not represent all Catholics but only a political lobby. We can interpret Vatican Council II rationally with the Rational Premise and the Council is ecclesiocentric. We have another theological axis in the Church. It is the Lumen Gentium -16 invisible-group. We are the opposite of Karl Rahner’s LG -16 visible interpretation of Vatican Council II.
Fernandez and Pagliarani interpret Vatican Council II with the Irrational Premise and so …Altro
THE VATICAN AND THE SSPX CHOOSE THE IRRATIONAL AND NOT RATIONAL PREMISE TO INTERPRET VATICAN COUNCIL II ETC. I DO NOT DO SO., JOSEPH SHAW MAKES THE SAME MISTAKE
09.02.2026
THE VATICAN AND THE SSPX CHOOSE THE IRRATIONAL AND NOT RATIONAL PREMISE TO INTERPRET VATicAN COUNCIL II ETC. I DO NOT DO SO., JOSEPH SHAW MAKES THE SAME MISTAKE
Rational Premise and the conclusion is traditional. It changes all the discussions on Vatican Council II and the SSPX.
There is a new discovery. It is Vatican Council rational, or the Council interpreted with a Rational Premise which takes the main line Catholic Church back to the old Faith.
Views on X with my comments
Mike Lewis reposted
Austen Ivereigh
@austeni
·
Feb 8
As Cardinal Fernández said, “But the issue is even more serious since today, on any blog, anyone — even without having studied much theology — can express his or her opinion and condemn others as if speaking ex cathedra.”
Lionel: There is a discovery. It is: we can interpret Vatican council II with a Rational Premise and the conclusion is traditional. It changes all the discussions on Vatican Council II and the SSPX.
______________________________ …Altro
WITH THE RATIONAL PREMISE THE FERNANDEZ-PAGLIARANI MEETING WOULD HAVE UNITY ON DOCTRINE ON THE CREEDS, COUNCILS AND CATECHISMS
09.02.2026
WITH THE RATIONAL PREMISE THE FERNANDEZ-PAGLIARANI MEETING WOULD HAVE UNITY ON DOCTRINE ON THE CREEDS, COUNCILS AND CATECHISMS
Vatican Council II rational would take the Church back to pre-Vatican Council II, times.
Vatican Council II is divisive with the Irrational Premise since this False Premise produces alleged explicit exceptions for the dogma EENS.
The SSPX does not have a doctrinal superiority, since it is acknowledged now even among conservatives that the SSPX made a mistake in the interpretation of the Catechism of Pope Pius X.
With the Rational Premise, the Fernandez-Pagliarani meeting can be a breakthrough for Tradition. They both would have to affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS), with no exceptions. There would also be unity on the Athanasius Creed and the Syllabus of Pius IX. Vatican Council II, rational, would be in harmony with all the Catechisms.
The traditionalist–liberal division would end since the Council would no more be liberal.
Vatican …Altro
THE FERNANDEZ-PAGLIARANI MEETING WILL BE BETWEEN TWO CATHOLICS WHO INTERPRET VATICAN COUNCIL II SCHISMATICALLY AND NOT RATIONALLY.
08.02.2026
THE FERNANDEZ-PAGLIARANI MEETING WILL BE BETWEEN TWO CATHOLICS WHO INTERPRET VATICAN COUNCIL II SCHISMATICALLY AND NOT RATIONALLY.
If for Pagliarani the hypothetical ( red) passages are hypothetical cases only and are invisible cases which do not contradict the orthodox ( blue) passages , aligned with EENS, then he would be traditional and would be accepting Vatican Council II traditional. Then Fernandez would be in schism, still.
With Vatican Council II rational, ecumenism, religious liberty, inter- religious dialogue and the liturgy are not an issue. The Council is traditional and is aligned with the ecclesiology at the times of the Papal States in Europe.
Even before the meeting, Pagliarani could issue a statement citing the superiority of Vatican Council, interpreted with the Rational Premise. Vatican Council II would be the strong point of the SSPX and not the weak point as at present.
The Fernandez-Pagliarani meeting will be between two Catholics who interpret Vatican …Altro
WHEN VATICAN COUNCIL II IS INTERPRETED WITH THE RATIONAL PREMISE CARD. FERNANDEZ IS IN SCHISM AND AUTOMATICALLY EXCOMMUNICATED
07.02.2026
WHEN VATICAN COUNCIL II IS INTERPRETED WITH THE RATIONAL PREMISE CARD. FERNANDEZ IS IN SCHISM AND AUTOMATICALLY EXCOMMUNICATED
When Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez interprets Vatican Council II with the Rational Premise he is in schism for not affirming the Athanasius Creed etc and is excommunicated automatically. He also changes the interpretation of the Creeds, Councils and old Catechisms. He needs to recant.
With the Rational Premise Vatican Council II is ecclesiocentric and so are other Magisterial Documents. They are aligned with extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) with no known exceptions.
Cardinal Fernandez needs to recant otherwise his decrees (on Archbishop Vigano, Arlington Carmelites, Gisella Cardia etc) are not binding. Canonically a cardinal in public schism cannot issue these decrees.
The Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican, does not have a continuity with the pre-1949 Magisterium of the Church. The False Premise creates a rupture.Over the centuries …Altro
THE SSPX CAN ONLY BE EXCOMMUNICATED WITH VATICAN COUNCIL II IRRATIONAL. WITH THE COUNCIL INTERPRETED RATIONALLY IT IS POPE LEO AND CARD. FERNANDEZ WHO ARE IN SCHISM
05.02.2026
THE SSPX CAN ONLY BE EXCOMMUNICATED WITH VATICAN COUNCIL II IRRATIONAL. WITH THE COUNCIL INTERPRETED RATIONALLY IT IS POPE LEO AND CARD. FERNANDEZ WHO ARE IN SCHISM
The SSPX can only be excommunicated if the Irrational Premise is used to interpret Vatican Council II. With the Rational Premise it is Pope Leo and Cardinal Victor Fernandez who are in schism. A Fernandez- Pagliarani meeting is meaningless for the SSPX, with Vatican Council II irrational. It is as useless as the Vatican- SSPX Doctrinal Talks during the pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI. Ratzinger did not interpret Vatican Council II rationally and kept this information ‘a secret’, from the SSPX.
With Vatican Council II rational, the rules change. The game changes. It is the trads who are at the steering wheel.
Cardinal Luiz Ladaria sj is still hiding somewhere. During the Doctrinal Talks with the SSPX he did not bring out ‘the secret’. He is not doing it now.
The ‘secret’ was not known to Archbishop Lefebvre and …Altro
WITH THE RATIONAL PREMISE POPE LEO AND THE SSPX ARE ALIGNED ON ECUMENISM, COLLEGIALITY, DIALOGUE, RELIGIOUS LIBERTY AND THE LITURGY
05.02.2025
WITH THE RATIONAL PREMISE POPE LEO AND THE SSPX ARE ALIGNED ON ECUMENISM, COLLEGIALITY, DIALOGUE, RELIGIOUS LIBERTY AND THE LITURGY
With the Rational Premise in the interpretation of Vatican Council II Pope Leo is aligned with the SSPX on an ecumenism of return, collegiality with an exclusivist ecclesiology, inter- religious dialogue which is part of ecclesiocentric traditional mission and the Roman Missal of the Latin Mass. The pope can no more be a liberal. The SSPX becomes Feeneyite on Vatican Council II andextra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). They are restricted by the Council-text and the rational view.
Seems too good to be true? It is true because they would be following Vatican Council II (rational) which has a reality of its own. The liberal-trad division is not there in the Church any more since the Council is ecclesiocentric like the Roman Missal and not the Missal of Pope Paul VI.
According to AI on X, Vatican Council II ( rational) will cause a schism in the Church …Altro
Pope Leo interprets the Creeds, Councils and Catechisms irrationally and schismatically. There has been no denial from the Vatican Dicastery for Communications.
04.02.2025
Here are some views on X on the consecration of new bishops of the SSPX on July 1, with my comments
Pope Leo interprets the Creeds, Councils and Catechisms irrationally and schismatically. There has been no denial from the Vatican Dicastery for Communications.
With Vatican Council II rational, which is orthodox and ecclesiocentric, religious liberty, ecumenism, collegiality and the liturgy are not an issue. It will be an issue for the liberals.
Austen Ivereigh
@austeni
Superb overview of Leo’s commitment to deepening conciliar reform, including of liturgy. His response to traditionalists is to realize, not reject, liturgical renewal.
Lionel: False. You cannot have a Conciliar or liturgical reform based upon Vatican Council II interpreted irrationally and not rationally. The Council has to be interpreted with the Rational and not Irrational Premise.
______________________
Commonweal Magazine
@commonwealmag
·
"As we come to know Leo better, it is becoming clear that he has a …Altro